[12:07 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Wow! That took ages to get logged in today.
[12:07 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: sadly the several crashes it had, may had cause some loss...
[12:08 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel welcome to 2025
[12:08 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Welcome, everyone to the first meeting of 2025. I hope you all enjoyed the Christmas season and had a good new years.
[12:08 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Thanks.
[12:08 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Someone should turn logging on.
[12:09 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Firestorm was being stubborn. Probably felt neglected from not having been run since last year. :) I couldn't start it from the menu. I had to start it from the command line today.
[12:09 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Ah.
[12:09 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: it is on
[12:09 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: hmmm?
[12:10 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Yes, I usually remember to turn on the logging box before I say my welcome.
[12:10 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well about code changes... hmm hmm a bit less than a line fixing a data type conversion
[12:11 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: object bonus was sent by viewers was decoded as int and not flaot as it should
[12:11 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it is a good start of the new year
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: and viewer side, how are things gavin and joe ?
[12:12 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I posted updates just before Christmas
[12:12 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :)
[12:12 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: after that just addressing some build issues
[12:12 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and RL
[12:13 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: we had a nasty snowstorm the last 2 days
[12:13 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: hmm isn't that the norm there? :)
[12:13 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not where I live
[12:14 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: dumping half a meter snow in combination with very strong wind is challenging either which way you cut it
[12:15 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: My exhaust fan cover fell off my roof two days ago, the weather has been crazy lately
[12:15 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: :(
[12:15 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: I rented a Forest Service cabin for next week, to go glamping in the snow. But no snow for 3 weeks before my trip. My only chance to play in the snow all year :(
[12:15 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: been nasty many places
[12:16 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Only one real bit of snow here and it was gone several days later when the weather warmed up a bit.
[12:17 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: did you get it covered?
[12:18 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Who are you asking, Lyr?
[12:18 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Code weather has been better though, found and fixed a small little bug with the object bonus that somehow slipped by for years
[12:18 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Good catch.
[12:19 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Great to see everyone *laughs*
[12:21 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:22 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Speaking of code weather over the holidays dotnet has a number of fresh bug reports coming in and subsequent patches rolling out, so it seems 9 is maturing now that it is spreading more widely
[12:22 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Still no clue if it's not just another dud in true MS fashion
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: wel they are on dotnet 9
[12:22 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: we can't move into 9 that easy
[12:23 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the removed more things, so we will need to work around that
[12:23 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Good to hear. I managed to get close to compiling an abandoned OS project that myself and a lot of other people miss and still want to use. Just dealing with a C# issue.
[12:24 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Removing things from dotnet under the idea that eventually it will be as fast as light itself... so fast you can't see it... cause they removed the last remaining line of code
[12:24 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: :)
[12:25 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: will make it build extra fast
[12:26 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: Misheard "OS" as Operating System and was about wail "OMG another one - please don't let it be VMS-based"
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: the changes ofc 9 also dont impress much ( except the braking ones)
[12:26 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Jagga, No, nothing like that. OS=Open Source in this case.
[12:26 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I hear mono has been given to the folks behind wine now with the aim to maintain it, not sure about future development. The cycle continues
[12:26 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: they keep adding compiler sugar and pretty useless things
[12:26 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: yup
[12:27 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I am sure MS will manage to stuff it with "AI"
[12:27 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: to pretend they are as java or rust or blabla
[12:27 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: aw, Jagga, I liked VMS... long, long ago
[12:28 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002 smiles
[12:28 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well dotnet core is better than mono ever was
[12:28 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Certainly in the memory department
[12:29 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: proble is the garbage they add, and the things they remove
[12:29 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: The removal is really what irks me the most, because the replacements or alternatives are so poorly documented. The sugar is just fluff that makes some stuff unreadable
[12:30 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Removing thread.abort in favor of some sort of abort flag that does... something... is just weird
[12:30 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Such a roundabout way of nuking something
[12:31 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well abort was always a problematic thing
[12:32 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well guess 9 is just to skip...
[12:33 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: MS keeps changing their minds on various things. Never know what they are going to change next.
[12:33 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: 8 support will terminate at same time as 9
[12:33 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats crazy
[12:34 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: 8 seems to work okay, so by usual MS standard 9 is a dud and 10 should be okay again, but still worse than 8
[12:35 PM PT] Ubit Umarov: well lets see what they will kill on 10 :p
[12:36 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I am not sure I want to imagine what it will be
[12:37 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Harmony had a region on Ten's grid, so she told me when it went down, and that is how we found out he is sick.
[12:37 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'd trust them to nuke gc in favor of "fast restart" or some other nonsense
[12:37 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: *oops, wrong window*
[12:37 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Kayaker, Ten?
[12:39 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Tenbears Running, a builder from SL, IW and Discovery Grid is having serious medical issues, his son took over his finances and shut down his sever account, deleting the little OpenSim grid he had.
[12:40 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: If you knew Tenbears, I'll pass on messages to him.
[12:40 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Ah, ok. I know someone else whose name could have been abbreviated as Ten. Sorry to hear he is under the weather.
[12:42 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: We are getting close to the top of the hour. Any other questions or comments re: Open Sim for today?
[12:43 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not on my side
[12:43 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: A question came up on if it's possible to white-list the macOS security of binaries
[12:43 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: such as unmanaged libs
[12:44 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: turn off system protection completely, but that is not recommended
[12:44 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: right , there are pros and cons
[12:44 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Is anyone here familiar with the Mac environment?
[12:44 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Gavin and I have been discussing but we're not sure
[12:44 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: maybe a topic for offline
[12:45 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: I run Macs
[12:45 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes
[12:45 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: we're looking into a possible simplification of macos-side security of OS DLLs, by using xattr
[12:46 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: can that be done by the one building it before distributing, or does it have to be done by each end user?
[12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not gonna work
[12:46 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: if it did, malware would have a free for all
[12:46 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not turning off security on macOS, jst the individual files
[12:47 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: in the Opensim source
[12:47 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: still the same
[12:47 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: one file is al it takes
[12:47 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: that would allow a hacker to replace binary with malware, and no warning
[12:48 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ok, so looks like keeping the signing is best plan
[12:49 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Vincent I think that answers the Q about code signing
[12:49 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yep
[12:49 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Heh
[12:49 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Wasn't gonna mention it not to tweak Ubit :)
[12:50 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: you could whitelist a binary you made on your own system, since you know who built it
[12:50 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: whitelist with xattr
[12:50 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but not a solution for distribution
[12:50 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: you can still run unsigned app-bundles, but you will specifically have to approve it in the privacy settings control panel on first run
[12:51 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I dont think macOS does that for dotnet DLLs
[12:51 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: only system extensions and apps
[12:51 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I have never seen it on DLLs
[12:51 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Spent my holidays trying an approach to rectifying the lack of an executable being created when compiling on Linux by writing a C wrapper that loads of OpenSim.dll through dotnet, because a project exists to compile C to APE which are platform independent binaries
[12:51 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: but who knows
[12:53 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Nice.
[12:53 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: but xattr can still work to prevent security warning, when you *know* it iosnt malware
[12:53 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: what does the system log say when you try to run it on macOS?
[12:54 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Far as I been told just security warnings and then the zsh failure, which is likely just a bug
[12:55 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I plan to clean up that code and have it public by the end of the month
[12:55 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok, but that is just the shell complaining
[12:55 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: the system log should give more details on what happens
[12:56 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: After the security and shell it works just fine
[12:56 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: so it is not blocked from running?
[12:57 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Yeah just cause developer is unknown I guess
[12:57 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Missing signature
[12:57 PM PT] Joe Magarac: Gotta go, next meeting! See you all next week.
[12:57 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: which version of macOS?
[12:57 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Have a great week
[12:57 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: Ventura I think
[12:58 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: ok
[12:58 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: thats old!
[12:58 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: and also not as finicky as newer versions
[12:59 PM PT] Lyr.Lobo @cc.opensimulator.org:8002: Many thanks for kicking off a great 2025! I must dash. *smiles* See you next week
[12:59 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, Lyr. Take care. See you again next week.
[12:59 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: Sequoia is current
[1:00 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: a mess
[1:00 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for local testing you can use xattr to remove the security warning
[1:00 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: for distro, it should be singer
[1:00 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: signed*
[1:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: I installed 10.4 in a virtual machine the other day just to remind myself how it was before they started to add all this nonsense they have done the last few versions
[1:01 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: PPC version in emulation of ARM
[1:02 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: not sprinting along, but runnable
[1:02 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ah the good ol days
[1:02 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: There's an app that lets you run macOS 7.x-9.x from the mid-1990s, emulated on the current macs
[1:02 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: Sheepshaver
[1:03 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: apart from the web browser having a hard time accessing anything, it works pretty smooth
[1:03 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: same
[1:03 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: UTM
[1:03 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I bet the eweb browsers that run on it have some trouble with today's websites
[1:03 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it has issues because of https and old versions of security stuff
[1:04 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I have Netscape running on Sheepshaver, they can't decode most of today's websites
[1:04 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll have to rely on you guys to sign it then, I got no apple id to even request a dev account with to sign things :)
[1:04 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: apple ID is free :)
[1:04 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: license to distribute signed binaries is $100us
[1:04 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yes, but the dev account for the signing certs are not
[1:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: I think the signing has to be done by the one building
[1:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: not sure if it even allos someone else to sign
[1:05 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: allows*
[1:05 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: can only be done on a Mac
[1:06 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: it does
[1:06 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: signing someone else's binary os peoblematic
[1:06 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: all the LL built libs are re-signed by me in the viewer
[1:06 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: ahh
[1:07 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: need to be sure the binary youre signing doesnt have unknown malicious code
[1:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: yeah, that's on you :-)
[1:07 PM PT] Gavin.Hird @grid.xmir.org:8002: or me
[1:08 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: :)
[1:08 PM PT] Vincent.Sylvester @hg.zetaworlds.com: I'll take the compliment that I'd even be able to write malicious code intentionally xD
[1:12 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: well it will fun to try out the code and see how it runs
[1:13 PM PT] Jagga Meredith: nap
[1:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Enjoy your nap, Jagga. :)
[1:13 PM PT] Cuga.Rajal @rajal.org:9000: guess we're finished in the macOS question for now
[1:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: ok, ty Cuga.
[1:13 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Any other last minute items?
[1:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: I don't see anyone typing so that will be it for today and this first meeting of the new year.
[1:15 PM PT] Andrew Hellershanks: Thank you all for coming. See you again next week.
[1:15 PM PT] Kayaker Magic: Buy all!
